Psychology of unconventional songwriting

[Daniel Sobota]

I saw a Reddit post earlier that inspired me to think about songwriting and how adapted we are to traditional verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge sort of songwriting, while it's harder to get into music with more unconventional songwriting and music with lesser vocal hooks.

This obviously deals a lot with melody and harmony (things I know very little about in theory), but how come something dissonant-sounding is so repulsive at first? Do you think if we were to be adapted to unconventional songwriting, lesser vocal hooks/traditional pop elements first, that sort of dissonant music wouldn't sound so dissonant then?

I think it's because we are exposed to traditional pop songwriting since practically birth, is what makes us not understand more unconventional music. Take for instance opera. People actually practice how to listen to opera. There isn't really anybody who loved opera the first time they heard it, because it goes against the usual pop type songs. Same is with more weird jazz-fusion stuff, prog rock, death/black metal, certain classical music etc.

So what I'm trying to say is, I'd say there is no actual dissonant music (I know there is an explanation of dissonance, but whatever haha). It's just that this type of dissonant and unconventional music is alien to us for a long part of our lives until we discover it.

 

[idssdi]

Yes there is dissonant music, if you solo in the wrong key it's just wrong. It has nothing to do with what you're used to. Of you know what you're doing you won't get to the point of people thinking it's dissonant. Diminished, half diminished or augmented sixth chords are really dissonant chords but if you know how and where to use them nobody is gonna bothered by them. If you than continue to solo over it in the wrong key it will just be plain wrong. It's like ground rule number one, you play in key. What you do within that key is op to you but you have to be within the key.

 

[Ed Seith]

Agree with Ids, dissonance is real. Whether it's appealing is a matter of taste. Like all intervals, dissonant notes produce a response in the listener. It's important to note that the "rules" are a result of the response, not the other way around. Dissonance has an air of chaos or disarray. If you want all your music to convey that, then everything can be dissonant. But you have to understand that most people don't want all chaos all the time. The music is an aural representation of emotions or feelings.

 

[Daniel Sobota]

Agree with Ids, dissonance is real. Whether it's appealing is a matter of taste. Like all intervals, dissonant notes produce a response in the listener. It's important to note that the "rules" are a result of the response, not the other way around. Dissonance has an air of chaos or disarray. If you want all your music to convey that, then everything can be dissonant. But you have to understand that most people don't want all chaos all the time. The music is an aural representation of emotions or feelings.

I'm not disputing the existence of dissonance, I'm merely questioning whether or not something that can be seen is dissonant would be perceived like that had we experienced music from a different angle in the beginning.

I guess it's the same with the alphabet. Why is A the first letter of alphabet? Because it developed from the ancient Greek times (alpha = beginning). But had some different culture developed the alphabet, it could have started with the letter B instead.

This might seem a bit abstract and wacky to think about, but it's kinda interesting to me.

 

[Ed Seith]

Well, if music had developed elsewhere, there's no guarantee it would develop with 12 equal steps between octaves. Could be six, could be 19. Vai experimented with microtonal stuff - he had a guitar built with notes outside the 12-note range.

Let's just say he stopped.

THAT part, I will grant you is conditioning, though there is some science and math behind the wavelengths and stuff.

 

[idssdi]

I'm not disputing the existence of dissonance, I'm merely questioning whether or not something that can be seen is dissonant would be perceived like that had we experienced music from a different angle in the beginning.

I guess it's the same with the alphabet. Why is A the first letter of alphabet? Because it developed from the ancient Greek times (alpha = beginning). But had some different culture developed the alphabet, it could have started with the letter B instead.

This might seem a bit abstract and wacky to think about, but it's kinda interesting to me.

The difference is that music is perceived by a listener and ears simply prefer the sound of non-dissonant sounds. It has very little do with how the alfabet works. There's also a reason the human ear doesn't like certain sounds and a dog for example doesn't like certain sounds. The way we perceived music is the way it is because humans like the way it sounds

 

[Chris Johnston]

I always find this topic really interesting to be honest. I feel like a lot of what we perceive to sound pleasant/not pleasant in harmony comes from the overtones of the Harmonic Series contained within every individual note.

It just so happens that the first bunch of overtones in the Harmonic Series make up an Octave, Perfect 5th and Major 3rd - So really The Major Triad is a fact of nature that makes even an individual note stable. It's literally built in to the physics of every note (which is freaky!). I think that's why a big rich Major triad feels so good and why we naturally can hear it as a home chord. I think it's also why the 'power chord' is a Perfect 5th and not a b5 if that makes sense, something about the vibrations just feel right to us? It sounds super airy fairy I know haha.

In saying that though, I think everything can be an acquired taste. If you constantly listen to denser chords then your ear will adjust and they will sound less dense. However the interesting thing is that no matter how deep you go into denser and more dissonant harmony, a Major Chord will never become an unpleasant sound to hear and will always feel like home.

This is the stuff that I love to ponder so thanks for the topic!

 

[Daniel Sobota]

I always find this topic really interesting to be honest. I feel like a lot of what we perceive to sound pleasant/not pleasant in harmony comes from the overtones of the Harmonic Series contained within every individual note.

It just so happens that the first bunch of overtones in the Harmonic Series make up an Octave, Perfect 5th and Major 3rd - So really The Major Triad is a fact of nature that makes even an individual note stable. It's literally built in to the physics of every note (which is freaky!). I think that's why a big rich Major triad feels so good and why we naturally can hear it as a home chord. I think it's also why the 'power chord' is a Perfect 5th and not a b5 if that makes sense, something about the vibrations just feel right to us? It sounds super airy fairy I know haha.

In saying that though, I think everything can be an acquired taste. If you constantly listen to denser chords then your ear will adjust and they will sound less dense. However the interesting thing is that no matter how deep you go into denser and more dissonant harmony, a Major Chord will never become an unpleasant sound to hear and will always feel like home.

This is the stuff that I love to ponder so thanks for the topic!

I don't have that much theory knowledge to talk about it in those terms, but yeah, this topic has interested me as well for a while now. Especially since I'm attracted to sounds that would most people consider to be not welcoming at all. I guess there is still a harmonic part to it because it needs to make sense in the context of the melody and the arrangements, but it's mostly a bizarre way of creating a sound.

 

[Chris Johnston]

I don't have that much theory knowledge to talk about it in those terms, but yeah, this topic has interested me as well for a while now. Especially since I'm attracted to sounds that would most people consider to be not welcoming at all. I guess there is still a harmonic part to it because it needs to make sense in the context of the melody and the arrangements, but it's mostly a bizarre way of creating a sound.

It must just be something you naturally like man! Yeah even really dissonant harmony is still harmony in a sense. Maybe it's the idea that most people are drawn away from it that attracts you to the sound?

 

[Daniel Sobota]

It must just be something you naturally like man! Yeah even really dissonant harmony is still harmony in a sense. Maybe it's the idea that most people are drawn away from it that attracts you to the sound?

I don't know, I just like how it sounds I guess? The fact that it's an acquired taste probably has something to do with it. You have to work to get the most of it, so it feels even more rewarding.

 

[Chris Johnston]

I don't know, I just like how it sounds I guess? The fact that it's an acquired taste probably has something to do with it. You have to work to get the most of it, so it feels even more rewarding.

Yeah I think that's the jist of it man!