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What name is this scale ?

Ahmed Farhat

Free Bird Player
Nov 11, 2019
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When you take the notes of the minor pentatonic scale, and replace the root with a half step down note, what do you call that scale ?
it’s a very cool sounding scale and has an interesting vibe.
For exemple I tried with A minor pentatonic scale and changed the root like I said,
and to me it sounded really nice over a G#major 7th.
 
G

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Its a very interesting scale, sounds quite nice – very exotic, dreamy and diminished. You end up with a scale formula of; 1 3 #4 5 7. I dont know what this name is, but it’s very lydian based, we are just missing the 2 and 6. Maybe you have created a Lydian Pentatonic Scale?! I’d certainly use it. Try it over a G#maj#11.
Jam over the chord progression Amin7 | G#maj#11 and play the minor pentatonic scale over the a minor and switch to your fancy new scale over G#maj#11!
 

Ahmed Farhat

Free Bird Player
Nov 11, 2019
16
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Thanks for your response Ben! I actually tried exactly what you said and it sounded great, kinda like a Blues jam, however I’m looking for something less “brutal” and less “shocking” to the ears if you know what I mean. I mean I’m trying to fit this thing in a more melodic and “coherent” chord progression to get the most out of it, something like a soft jazzy ballad! But yeah what a great addition!
 

Syn Gates

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You are playing a “G# Augmented Major Pentatonic”- G#, C, D, E, G and it is a pentatonic scale based on the 3rd mode, “Lydian Augmented”, of the “Melodic Minor” scale. This sounds great over an E7(the V(5) of A) chord thats resolving to A minor.
The G# Aug Maj pent gives you the notes of an E7#5#9 chord so you really get a cool altered sound. I especially love a raised altered sound as it gives it a more spacey, ethereal quality as opposed to altering the 5th and 9th down a half step which gives it a more out and ugly(in a good way lol)quality.
It also sounds good to play this scale in passing over a G# major chord but to my ear, you’d want to resolve both augmented notes(D and E) to the perfect 5th which would be D# pretty quickly.
If you want to get crazy, this would also sound brilliant over the IV chord in F blues, Bb7, if we are sticking with our G# aug maj pent.
F is a common key for Jazz Blues which is cool because you can find backing tracks on YTube in this key very easily which lets you experiment easier since you won’t have to transpose the G# pent. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64GfdW0ipH4 (you should know this by now or at least start thinking about it, but for the V chord in F blues, C7, you can play an E Aug Maj Pent)
So this should get you going and when you are comfortable with these applications, check out more applications of Melodic Minor because wherever Melodic minor can be used, so can the Augmented Major Pentatonic up a minor 3rd.
Also, “A” minor is a very common minor key especially in gypsy jazz so go play your G# Aug Maj Pent over the E7 and Bb7(the tritone sub for E7) in the most famous Gypsy Jazz tune, “Minor Swing” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRAThtQ-OTM
 

Ahmed Farhat

Free Bird Player
Nov 11, 2019
16
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@syn This is seriously eye-opening! I was doing this whole thing in my latest upload and I wasn’t even aware of it! I was playing in a C minor chord progression and at the end I played the Am7b5 (which, I think, acted a bit like the V chord) and then a C#7 right away which is the tritone sub for G7 like you said, and I wasn’t seeing it at all! It just sounded right to me. I’m blown away XD
However, when jamming over it, I was focusing more on the harmonic minor so I think I need to play more of that aug.maj.pent. during the V and its tritone sub, adds so much color.
I can’t thank you enough, I wasn’t seeing it at all, but it took me a while to start understanding your response, as I’m not very comfortable with theory.
PS: Honestly, altering the 5th and 9th down a half step sounded totally dreadful to me x) I’ll stick to the E7#5#9.
 
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idssdi

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Wow! I’miss actually properly looking at this stuff now. And it gives me even more options for minor swing(aren’t you kinda doing the same notes as E super locrian here but just with a different tone center?) Up till know I only really used A harmonic/melodic Minor with E double Harmonic and E super locrian thrown in at times. This should give me even more options to work with. Thanks Syn and Ahmed for bringing this scale up!😊
 

Syn Gates

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You’re correct Ids it’s all a part of the E Super Locrian family if we are looking at it from the tonal center which is E7. Focusing on substitutions even if it’s from the same family just give us a different perspective and give us an easier method of using different notes to accomplish the same goal.
We commonly use Melodic Minor to explain things because it’s what’s called a “Structure Scale” which basically means that it is home base for all it’s corresponding modes like the Lydian Augmented in which the Augmented Major pentatonic is built off of. Ionian is the structure scale for all of the other Greek Modes like Dorian, Lydian, etc.
Also, Ahmed, you mentioned playing Amin7b5 over G7 resolving to Cmin but all you are essentially playing is a Cmin6 arpeggio over the G7 and to my ear, doesn’t create any tension demanding the resolution back to “i” or “Cmin”. In this case,you’d want to play “Fmin7b5” over the G7 because that would be your 3rd inversion G#minor6 arpeggio which is an arpeggio contained in G# melodic minor which is also G(natural) altered(super locrian).
The “Minor 6” arpeggio is one of my favorites because of it’s amazing diversity. Please check out this lesson but also pay close attention to my “Syn’s Tips” section below the lesson. https://syngates.com/lessons/overview-of-the-minor-6-arpeggio-lesson-109/
 

Ed Seith

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    This is where I struggle with theory. Watching this back and forth reminds me of born-again Christians arguing over the meaning of a 5 word sentence. I mean no disrespect here – this kind of thing is where I gave up on theory altogether.
    I remember back in the 80s reading Guitar for the Practicing Musician, and the guys doing the transcripts, bless their hearts, would go into long, drawn out detail about how George Lynch started in this mode, stepped briefly out to this outside mode for a half measure, before switching back to the original, and so on and so forth.
    All the while, it was abundantly clear George was doing a simple pattern, like 11-12-14, across 4 or 5 strings. There was no theory involved, but these guys were desperately trying to compartmentalize it like that, like George was playing it “that way,” and he clearly wasn’t. In fact, it became incredibly easy to tell the theory guys from the gut guys – if the explanation of their lead theory was 3 paragraphs long, they didn’t know a goddamn thing about theory – they were winging it. The theory guys had one or a couple sentences about the key or mode they used, and that was it.
    So, I guess this turned into a rant, and I didn’t mean it to, but it gets frustrating – how do you know “when to say when” when it comes to parsing this stuff out. Clearly Syn knows a staggering amount of theory – I knew that already, but seeing him here riffing this stuff out off the top of his head is insanely impressive, but the question remains – where does the ordinary guy draw the line? Where do you start from and where do you set your targets?
    It’s all so overwhelming, and I don’t want to walk away from theory again.
     
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    idssdi

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    @Ed where I draw the line is when therequired are no notes that make up the chord whatsoever in the chord progression at all. I would definetely would advice learning some of the stuff here. I can get very annoyed with my band when hey don’t get theery stuff
     

    Syn Gates

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    Absolutely Ids, it sounds great!
    Ed, I’m not sure I understand the comparison. When I read through the chain it feels like everyone is just trying to understand what they are playing, not disagree with the theory presented.
    I do agree however that theory is just a means of understanding and analyzing what is being played but contrary to popular belief, a lot of the greatest writers of all time like the Bach’s and Beethoven’s or Coltrane’s of the world, were Theory gurus and innovators spending equal time writing from their soul as they did writing from a mathematical perspective to bring about new and never heard before influences.
    Number one- you should always be led by your ear. If it doesn’t sound good to you than it’s not for you ….at least at the moment because it could be an acquired taste.
    That brings me to Number two💩- theory and harmony can be an incredible source of inspiration and can develop your ear making what you hear in your head naturally, inherently more sophisticated.
    I’ve never heard chord inversions naturally or key changes, but when I analyze the Beatles or Nirvana songs, I realize that they are chalked full of rich harmony that they probably heard a lot more naturally than me but I’m not gonna let that preclude from writing that way, I just have to do more work than Paul or Kurt to satisfy my own creative appetite.
    Finally, the one thing that I know all of the greats did with or without deep analysis, is transcribing their favorite artists. Django copied the shit out of Dizzy Gillespie and Paul and John copied the shit out of Brian Wilson and vice versa. Whether they knew exactly why the notes worked or not, doesn’t matter. They were satisfied enough to immortalize their art through recordings and performances and that’s good enough for me.
    “lesser artists borrow, great artists steal”- Igor Stravinsky
     

    idssdi

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    @syn I take a bow to the Beatles anywayou. They absolutely are amazing and in every single pop song there is ano influence of the Beatles (yes i’m a beatles fan).
    And yes there are two things which I consider fundamental to music which arequires rhythm and harmony. Which basically me would mean to me that you have to understand both of them to properly understand music. And there’s a lot of harmony in this topic(rhythm may be another topic all together) try to understand this stuff to really get a grab of the more advanced stuff (like color tones and what not)
    P.s. I’m also pretty drunk right now so maybe I’might giving bad advice(which knows)
     

    Ed Seith

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    Thanks Ids and Syn. To clarify, I think with the comparison I wasn’t suggesting argument, just getting so far into the minutiae of “the rules” that the spirit of them can be lost, in much the same way that someone devout can get so far into the details of what a word or small sentence means, while completely forgetting the big parts of Christ’s example of, you know, not being a tool to everyone.
    That’s all I meant. Sorry for the confusion. And Syn cleared it all up by pointing back to the greats and “be led by your ear.” It was all just starting to make my head hurt, and I’m at work so I can’t drink it away like Ids is apparently doing 🙂
    Which brings me to a final question for Syn, if he will indulge. I’ve dug into some of your leads – your note choices and the shapes and intervals you get into do not seem to be “building on those before you” in a guitar sense. Your inspiration there seems to me to come from an instrument or instrumentalist outside of the guitar. I mean, yeah, obviously there are a lot of guitar influences, but your sense of melodic structure seems to come from another inspiration. Piano?
     

    idssdi

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    @Ed I don’the necesarily drink it all away. I just happened in be drunk that happens sometimes(I think know here are more people who can relate to that)
    I think Syn combines a lot of the different scales creating a bit weird intervals(and also not choices) in the end note choices purely come from picking which color notes you’really choosing to use (for example even though a minor/major seventh is not in the hehe scale you’really using you acne still apply them over the correct chords)
     
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    idssdi

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    If your’re just talking about that specific backing track. You can use Dm and F arpeggios for sure. All the others I’m not sure. You can always try to use Fmaj (the relative major of Dm or Dm is the 6th mode(aelioan) of f major) to figure out the areggios that work over Dm